~svn/ubuntu/oneiric/subversion/ppa

    Notes from Version Control BOF (Tuesday, 18 Oct, EuroOSCON 2005)
    ================================================================

We didn't have a very broad range of systems: most people used SVN or
CVS, plus a scattering of other systems (3 SVK users, a couple of P4s,
an MKS, and a PVCS).

Since we already knew CVS's problems, we gathered complaints about
Subversion, and some information about different groups' general VC
methodologies.  See the end of this file for a list of attendees.

Subversion Complaints:
----------------------

* Lack of easy merging.  One wants to type "svn merge SRC DST", but
  instead, one must type "svn merge -rX:Y URL WC".  Why can't the DST
  just remember what has been merged from that SRC before and DTRT?

  For that matter, why can't branches remember where they come from,
  so one could just type "svn merge SRC" and it'd know the DST?

  Note that SVK does all this.
  
  [gstein: shouldn't that be "svn merge DST"? you're merging *into*
  the destination using a known SRC. and DST might just be "."

  [kfogel: Well, I'm not sure, it could work both ways, right?  That
  is, maybe you want to feed a branch's changes back into its trunk,
  or maybe you want to pull trunk changes out into a branch.
  Grammatically the argument could be the subject or object, I don't
  feel like either way is inherently more intuitive.  Which may mean
  this syntax is too ambiguous to use...]

  [fwiemann: So why not add new commands, "push" and "pull"?]

* One person mentioned pulling (pushing?) trunk changes to multiple
  branches, a sort of "find my descendants and do THIS to them"
  operation.  Some more thoughts: it would be nice to be able to do
  this to

  - All branches descending from the LoD ("line of development")
    that contains the change in question
  - Branches selected by inclusion
  - Branches selected by exclusion

  This person also said they do cherry-picking of changes sometimes;
  wish we'd had time to drill down on that a bit more.

* Someone mentioned it would be nice to be able to commit from a trunk
  working copy directly into a branch.
  
  [gstein: isn't this just "svn cp . http://.../branches/newbranch" ?]

  [kfogel: Ah, yes, right, in fact we even said so at the meeting.
  That combined with 'svn revert' gets the desired feature.  Unless
  the user actually wanted to commit changes from a trunk wc into an
  existing branch... but that would involve perilous auto-merging.]

  [fwiemann: Then the branch starts out with changes, so that the
  branch point to diff/merge against is the trunk in the previous
  revision, which complicates things a little because we cannot type
  "svn diff -r123:HEAD mybranch".  Not a major problem, though.]

* Offline commits.  A lot of people wanted these, mainly, it seemed,
  as a way of cleanly storing up commits until they can get back
  online again.  It's important that they be real commits, not just
  patch files, because the successive commits might depend on each
  other.

* The One-File-In-Many-Branches Problem.  We hand-waved a bit about
  what this means exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was the feature of
  having files (or perhaps even whole directories?) that follow one
  LoD but are visible from many LoD.  In other words, you create a
  branch, but mostly the files on the branch are really the same
  entities as they are on trunk, except for a few files that you
  designate as being "hard branched" (perhaps this designation happens
  automatically when you modify something).

  This is apparently similar to p4 "views".  Can someone confirm this?
  
  [gstein: p4 client specs can assemble a wc from many locations, much
  like you can have a multi-source wc in svn. I'm not familiar with a
  "view", but I'm guessing the implication is something that many
  developers can share to create their client spec. Wouldn't this be
  like an svn:external that pulls together all the various bits? or
  maybe use some kind of repos-side symlink.]

  [jackr: ClearCase "view" is the sum of a working copy and a
  "configuration specification," which means that each WC can
  have a separate configuration.  In principal, each file and
  directory can come from a completely different branch, tag, or
  version; in practice, of course, most cspecs take most files
  from the same source.  But it's quite common to have
  'components' in the working set, and have each component
  follow a different branch.  We might have a RELEASE1 branche,
  nearly ready to ship, and a RELEASE2 branch that's still a
  long way from release.  You might be working on a RELEASE2
  feature, and so your cspec picks your component from the
  RELEASE2 branch.  But other components haven't started on
  RELEASE2 yet; you pick them from the RELEASE1 branch, and are
  assured that you're building and testing against their latest
  (integrate early, integrate often).]

* Subversion has no way to answer "What branches/tags is this version
  of this file present in?"  This is especially important for software
  producers who have to support releases for a long time.  When they
  discover that a given bug is present in, say, r325 of foo.c, they
  need a way to ask what releases (i.e., what tags) that exact entity
  (i.e., "node revision") is present in, because those releases will
  also have the bug!

  CVS can do this, by virtue of RCS format.  ClearCase can too, I
  believe.  Subversion certainly could do it; in general, we need to
  think about how to make these kinds of reports and queries easier.
  If we ever get serious about switching to an SQL back end for SVN,
  this would be a perfect test problem to see if our design is on the
  right track.

  Gervase demonstrated Bonsai doing this, a CVS tree viewing tool
  which, as he says, "is very cool but not well documented and only
  mozilla.org seems to use".  Since  it views CVS, this sort of 
  calculation is easy for it.
  
  It was pointed out by Axel Hecht that due to the requirements of
  l10n work, Mozilla actually uses this feature "at least once per
  week".

* Branching subdirectories in SVN is not intuitive...

* ...which means this is probably a good time to bring up 'mkdir -p'
  (automatically create parent directories; see issue #1776), as well
  as 'rm -k/--keep' (only "unversion" files, do not delete the working
  files), and 'diff -s/--summary' (status-like diff output; see issue
  #2015), all of which were desired by clkao.

  [Question: Did someone start on a patch for 'svn diff --summary'
  recently?  I think I may have seen that on the dev@ list... Yes.
  In http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=108496,
  Peter Lundblad says: "The API part of this is already implemented
  some time ago. So, it is quite low-hanging to do the cmdline GUI
  part."  -kfogel]

* Smart patch format.  A patch format that can represent every kind of
  transformation that could be transmitted by 'svn update'.  We should
  make sure to be compatible with SVK when we do this; clkao and
  kfogel have already discussed this, and there's been some talk on
  dev@subversion.tigris.org too.

Comments from projects that switched from CVS to SVN:
-----------------------------------------------------

* The w.c. space penalty is a real issue for large projects.  Disk
  space is not as cheap as we thought, those .svn/text-base/* files
  hurt.  See http://subversion.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=525.
  
  [gerv: Random thought - if you can't easily do copy-on-write, could
  you perhaps share text-base files by hard-linking between multiple
  checkouts of the same tree (which is where this problem normally
  hits hardest.) Yes, OK, there are scary thoughts there about trees
  no longer being independent of each other...]

* Hosting the repository and migrating the user base were issues for
  at least one open source project (Docutils, reported by Felix
  Wiemann):

  - There weren't many free Subversion hosting services that offer
    enough features; see
    <http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/docutils/trunk/sandbox/felixwiemann/subversion.txt?rev=3080>
    for a list of requirements we had.  We chose BerliOS, which is
    scary though because they provide little support.

    Tigris (recently?) started to offer free Subversion hosting as
    well, but it's a bit difficult to find that out from their web
    site, and it isn't listed in the Subversion Project Links.

  - Repository migration went flawless with cvs2svn (except for some
    binary files being garbled).

    Since there seemed to be some interest in that: We even could've
    migrated the repository in several passes (migrating one part at a
    time) by converting a part and then dumping the resulting
    repository.  Note however that commit dates would get out-of-order
    (non-chronological) so that -r{DATE} doesn't work anymore.

  - Regarding migrating the user base: There's some natural tension to
    switch the SCM because developers have to install a new tool.
    That seemed acceptably easy in this case, however.  Also, all
    developers have to manually re-register at the new site (BerliOS)
    to get access to the repository.  But overall that part of the
    migration went quite painless.

* One group rejected BitKeeper for UI reasons.

* One person commented that distributed systems don't address
  migration concerns.  Also, they don't clearly say how to implement a
  centralized-style system on top of the decentralized substrate.  In
  general, they need more process guidance.  Subversion probably gets
  off easy here because it takes advantage of a process people already
  know, because they used CVS before.

* Also, the distributed systems don't have GUI tools, at least not as
  many so far.  I (kfogel) took this comment as indicating that the
  overall "tool ecosystem" is an important part of the decision for a
  lot of groups.

* GIT and BK have GUIs that display topology.  I think ClearCase does
  too, btw.  Wish we'd had time to go into more detail about exactly
  how these viewers are used, and how often.  Anyone care to comment?

  [jackr: Yes, ClearCase has a graphical topology viewer.  Mixed
   success.  Tends to become absolutely crucial to managing
   branches at a certain level of complexity; tends to destroy
   the server with its server-side computations at about "that
   level plus epsilon".  Example: parallel development of some
   new feature, occasional ladder-merges from trunk out to that
   branch keep it in sync.  Just before delivering the work to
   the world on trunk, you wonder "what's happened since my last
   merge-out?"

   Another example: we branch releases off trunk just before
   release, for final stabilization. Then we create patches on
   that same branch.  Sometimes, we fork a new branch for a
   maintenance release, sometimes we just extend the existing
   branch.  Now, you're assigned to provide an urgent patch to
   some old maintenance release: quick: do you use the parent
   release branch, or is there a maintenance branch?  In SVN,
   you may be able to handle this with a listing of branches/
   and some knowledge of branch-naming strategies, but in
   ClearCase there's nothing quite analogous.]

Attendees:
----------

* Gervase Markham <gerv {_at_} mozilla.org>
  Large CVS repository (mozilla), small SVN (personal)  

* Chia-Liang Gao <clkao {_at_} clkao.org>
  SVK, SVN, p4, CVS

* Ottone Grasso <ottone.grasso {_at_} tilab.com>
  SVN

* Mauro Borghi <mauro.borghi {_at_} telecomitalia.it>
  Small CVS and SVN

* Axel Hecht <axel {_at_} mozilla.com>
  1 SVN + N CVS

* Felix Wiemann <felix.wiemann {_at_} ososo.de>
  SVN, CVS, MKS

* Greg Stein <gstein {_at_} google.com>
  CVS, SVN, p4

* John Viega <viega {_at_} securesoftware.com>
  Didn't say.

* Brian Fitzpatrick <fitz {_at_} google.com>
  CVS, SVN, p4

* Sander Striker <striker {_at_} apache.org>
  SVN, CVS

* Stefan Taxhet <stefan.taxhet {_at_} sun.com>
  CVS (OpenOffice.org)

* Christian Neeb <chneeb {_at_} gmx.net>
  CVS, PVCS

* Arjen Schwarz <arjen.schwarz {_at_} gmail.com>
  No version control.

* Erik Hülsmann <ehuels {_at_} gmail.com>
  SVN, CVS

* Dobrica Pavlinusic <dpavlin {_at_} rot13.org>
  Legacy CVS, SVN, SVK, svn2cvs.pl

* Gonçalo Afonso <gafonso {_at_} gmail.com>
  CVS

* David Ramalho <dramalho {_at_} blackorange.pt>
  CVS, SVN, SVK

* Karl Fogel <kfogel {_at_} collab.net>
  SVN, CVS

Also, Jack Repenning <jrepenning {_at_} collab.net> did not attend,
but read the notes and added some comments; search for "jackr".

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